The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
27 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Jimbo Huts
Is NECC encroaching on NSW territory? What does the leadership of SWCC/NSW think of this? Is the community being overshadowed by big navy, and if so how will this effect the community as a whole? Given that few people outside NSW know that SWCC exists, I'm curious about the future of an organzation that I dearly love and am protective of. I fear the threat isn't from without as much as it is from within.
Comments, replies?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

DeltaSix
Jimbo,
   I believe that the two commands are overlapping but not directly competing.I am a SBU/T type guy myself. I have also had experiance running Combatant Craft outside the SPECWAR shere of influence.  I feel your pain but I beleive that there are some historical answers that may clear up or hasted your concerns.It is entirely up to you.
  Special Warfare is, by definition, specialized. In fact, they have given away tasking and or ignored certain types of tasks now and in the past. Here are some examples:

   Riverine Divisions - After nearly all Mobile Riverine Force (MRF) platforms and most PBR's and PCF's were left in South Vietnamese hands.  The development of COSRIVRONS appeared as well as thier COSRIVDIVs or CRD's, the precursor to SBU's and SBT's. The regular Navy had all but abandoned Riverine and Coastal assets to pursue the Bluewater paradigm of fighting, maybe, the Soviets. SBU's were The sole remainder of these forces. In fact, SPECWAR was mostly into Coastal Special Warfare as Both soely Riverine Units, SBU's 11 and 22 were Reserve units. The only Active duty Riverine assets in the SBU world were at SBU-26, in Panama which also had the distinction of being a mixed Riverine and Coastal Unit.
   Around 1992, when funds were scarcer than they are now, The USMC basically picked up were the Vietnam MRF left off. In fact, MRF doctrine, NWP 15 was written by a Marine Colonel. They created Riverine Assault Craft or RAC platoons. RACS were purpose made boats about 35ft long. I had the opportunity to work with them a couple of times in Panama. The USMC plan was to speed up a river from the sea with F470's, Rigid Raiders, and the RAC as the platform of firepower. Basically, they moved the MRF from 8 to 40 knots. They even had plans for air assets to support the platoons to include Super Cobras and Harriers.
   Needless to say after 9/11, The Corps had no problem finding work. So much so that they decided to give up Riverin Assault all together. That's where the NECC picked up on the program. The rest, as they say, is history to be made.
   IMHO, and hindsight being 20/20 of course, SPECWAR decided to pass on the opportunity of Riverine Assault. Whether they will regret it or not, remains to be seen. NECC has become a major part of the USN. Not only with the Riverine Divisions but they have absorbed the former MUIWS and IBS's as well.
   There are some well thought of people in or formerly in SPECWAR that would say that SBT's have become so specialized that SBT's 20 and 12, the Coastal Units are basically taxi service for SEALs and that SBU-22, a Riverine SBT is still much much more that that. Still, SPECWAR is very about SEALs.
   NECC faces many of the issues that SBU's did over the years. The primary one is the turnover of personnel. BM's, GM's EN's etc. rotate back to the fleet and knowledge and training is basically lost. With the different types of duty within NECC, I would think that Officers as well as Enlisted would have a well rounded career in a closed loop community.

God, Country and Fast Boats!
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

leesea
D6 excelllent history  and observations.  Being a PBR type, I focus a lot on the new riverines.  Whose missions now are patrol and training which I think the NSW/SWCCs are not as interested in?  There is much overlap in the boats both use, which is ok since it keeps costs down.

The standup of NECC is important aspect since it gives the riverines and MESRONs and Seabees and a lot of other suede boot sailor their own type commander much like NSW is to SEALS and SWCCs.  

Like you say the new riverines and NECC are climbing up a learning curve right now an will be for awhile.  I think the EXW warfare speciality may work out for enlisted but am not as convinced the officers will not fade away?
LCDR SWO MTS all retd now PBR-FVA VP
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Seafox
Jimbo, I have a long history in the NSW Boat units, but I retired in 1999. After the Vietnam war the entire USN combatant craft capability nearly went away. Congress wanted them gone...no more reminders of Vietnam. The Big Blue Water Admirals were willing to go along with this. Only Naval Special Warfare wanted the Boats!!!!
The Boats are Part of the SEA AIR LAND Team. They have to have them complete their Maritime missions. Subs and SDVs are also part of the maritime mission. But They are not going to run continuous Operations in Theather. They do Special Missions. Boat Detachments are assigned to the deploying SEAL Plts.  It is that Plts own Waterborne Support. Naval Special warfare litterally Saved the Navy's Combatant craft Capability.
 Its true you can demean them by calling them Bus drivers for SEALs.  But No SEAL I have ever known who was saved by a boat det on a hot extraction call them Bus Drivers, he calls the Jim, or Bill or Bob . Their is a  respect becuase everybody bleeds. SEALs take their High risk mission knowing they got somebody that will get them out when in trouble.
Such personal lessons were forgotten in the early 80s as Combat Vets retired and NSW waterborne Operations were all too few. FORGOTTEN even by NSW Leadership. Until the Next Water war came up. Operation Earnst Will 1987-89 was USSOCOM's first Operation in the Persian Gulf. SEALS  deployed and they took the Boats..It turned out to be a eye opening role reversal for NSW Leaders.. SBU Boats were doing the majority of the operations The SEAL Plts sat on the barges waiting on Contingency Operations. Bored SEALs often went on Patrol with me as gunner just to log in a few patrols. The SEALs did do Contingency Operations and they knew their Boats were there if they needed a hot extraction. Two years later The BIG Persian Gulf war happened Desert Storm 90/91 again NSW commited the SEALs again a eye opening experience. on the Land side Air/Helo assets were snapped up by other commands for other missions. But on the Waterside The SEALs went to war with the SBU detachemnts. NSW Leadership took Notice again The SBU crews performed wonderfully, while operating aging Boats.. After the War Those SBU crews they rotated back to the Fleet all that combat experience lost.again. The NSW Admrial said this had to Change and during work began the process for the Close loop SWCC which became a reality in 1994.
Transition boats of the 90s gave way to the current inventory. Now in 2003 Iraqi Freedom SWCC and SEAL performed Professioanlly well together in combat as it should be.

But Now after the water war done the SEAL Moved inland in Iraq and Afgansistan. SWCC is still involed in Iraq but the main thrust now is Afganistan. and a Mountainous land war. No place for boatguys. SEALS fight wars and the focus is now on land. Hence the NSW Leadership is looking at land/air warfare. The SWCC is not the full partner now in those conflicts. So I fear NSW Leadership may be not have the  full view of NSW warfare but tunnel vision at land ops..
Basically Jimbo. SWCC is in a slump becuase of this and will suffer in getting new craft and billets.. This maybe the reason why they are not focusing on Piracy or MTT to Host nations. becuase NSW funding priorty is to fighting the Land war.... Have said all this I say Hang tight.. the tide will turn again and a another war war will come along.
just look at the Hots spots, Korea, Iran. Phillipines etc. a matter of time..need to just ride it out.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Jimb Huts
In reply to this post by leesea
You hit the nail on the head with your comment about NSW/SWCC appearing indifferent to the FID/JCET mission. Thats my point as well. D6 made some outstanding comments as well, particularly in reference to the SBT's having specialized themselves out of a mission. I retired out in May of last year. At that time the big thing coming down the pike was mobility training which would put SWCC's as drivers, navigators and gunners in assualt convoys with the PLT's. I'm all for it. Let it happen. We must prove to the rest of SOCOM that we can do a mission out of the water. After 9/11 SWCC/NSW let mission after mission pass them by which proved to the impetus in NECC standing up: the mission needed to be covered, and with no purple assets (SWCC/NSW) available to fill the hole, big blue requested funding for material and training, and voila......Blue assets are doing missions which SWCC has been trained for. For me, this was and is a point of great frustration. If we don't do what we advertise, then what will the future of this program be?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Seafox
  Looks like Naval Special Warfare isn't getting out off the FID Bussiness yet.
 Re- Established NSWU-10  (the old UNIT 10 was in Spain)will work for US Africa COM has just stood up.
and awaiting SECDEF Gates approval.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Seafox
SBT's in Kenya helping them establish their own Special Boat Unit... so FID still happening.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Jimbo Huts
......And it will never go away. However, FID is the job that gets handed out because A: you haven't made yourself available for any other mission and B: It's unpopular; FID isn't where its at.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Delta Six
  FIDs may not be seen as where it is at because it lacks the apparent flash. Perhaps because the advantages arent understood. The primary one being, it's nice to know the lay of the land in a place you may have to fight in one day. The sharp players will learn the capabilities, customs, fears and tactics of friend and foe alike. One never knows when the roles will be reversed. Venezuela, for instance. As well as Bolivia.
  It's only uncool if you dont forsee the future advantages. Take Africa, for example. Better to teach them everything they know but not everything we know. They learn what we want to teach them.
  If nothing else, look at a FID as an opportunity for a early sight survey or recon. The more you know, the less you bleed.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Seafox
Dark Shadows off a hostile shore..the role of SWCC
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Rob1966
In case any one is interested the attached are the pins the SWCC are trying to go to.
Proposed SWCC pins
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Seafox
Rob 1966 Thanks for Update on SWCC Insignia.. Is this going to Fly??? or just Talk.
Keep us updated.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Rob1966
It looks like the try for new pins for the SWCC community is just talk and probably not going to change. It sort of sounded like a few of the people in the community got their pride bruised because the current pin soemtimes got mistaken for the ESWS or SCWS pin, and they wanted to try and change it. Silly me, I was more worried about doing my job well than what pin or ribbon I had on my chest. And yes, I'm filling the role of the "old retired grumpy Chief" quite successfully.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Seafox
 With NSW's SEAL Teams tide up in a Land locked war of Afganistan in 2011.... The SWCCs need more water Missions
WHY can't They be deployed to take on the Somali Pirates??????
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Rob1966
That is a good question. That sounds like it would be a perfect mission, and fall right into the SWCC area of expertise. They could be deployed from a amphibious ship and use it as a base of operation, kind of like back in the days of ARG's.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Seafox
This post was updated on .
 Naval Special Warfare is Unconventional Warfare!!! SWCC is in a unique postion to be in a Growing stage.
The Older NSW Combatant Craft is getting Past their Lifespand. SEALS are fighting a land war in 2011.
How about some of that great Unconventional Thinking that makes Naval Special Warfare.
Once again SBTs have entered the period where SWCC mobility should be revisited as in its Past History

Recommend readers  see SOC and TOC concepts on Special Boat Squadron ONE of warboats.org.

SWCCs should have the capaibilty of a Rapid Deployable Force.
with all its gear portable taking no boats.
Once in  A.O. The SWCC Detachement would use  Host Nation Boats be they Naval Patrol Craft or
Local Indigionus Craft....and  That being what ever boat can support SEALs on a waterborne mission.
Be It a Arab Dhow, a Chinese Junk, a Fishing Boat.. a Go Fast Boat, a Sail Boat, a Water Taxi!! or Oil Platform Support Boats. Tug Boats, Yachts.... the list is endless.

 

Peace time Missions would be MTT to host nations learning the Host Nation Boats.A.O. waters. and culture all adds to the SWCC capability.

Indigious Craft Operations should be in the Playbook of SWCC...SWCC IS NAVAL SPECIAL WARFARE... use them correctly and you have  added ASSET.

The Future NSW Ops may actually "maybe" found in the Past. The OSS in WWII used them to a High degree of success.

Just sayin'.......a old school SOC guy.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Jim Thomas
Well said, Boat Guys can do with anything that flaot and do it well
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Delta Six
In reply to this post by Seafox
Back at 26, We did a canal defense scenario about once a quarter. It was done at Unit 8 and it was basically tossing around ideas. Near every det had thier turn in the hopper. I rremember some scenario where there were supposed to be badguys on OPs throughout the canal. The CO from unit 8, cant remember his name. Rob, you gotta help me out on that one. He wanted to get team guys and boats out there but wanted them ASAP, which meant, daylight. No good for the PBL's. So I mentioned using the Trophy boats that MWR rented. Crew then with Boat Guys. Team guys stashed in the cabins. Head out on the Lake fishing, boom box, and beer. Slip intot he bank now and then and drop off the team guys. Then deploy the PBL's with Team Guys at night.
  Can't beleive the first thing out of the CO's mouth was, "I dont think the NAVSTA CO will release the Trophy boats"....I said, "Sure he will. Don't you think he would want some of the glory too?" I think he worked up an MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) to use the Trophys if a similar occasion actually arose.
  Nobody thinks a boatload of loud, drunk Gringos look out of place. It was the perfect plan. God bless Jose Trevino and Dave Rose for letting me go on at the meeting.
Ed
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Ed
In reply to this post by DeltaSix
Sounds like you guys have nothing better to do! I only read these things to see what kind of sensitive information is being shared with entire world!!! Good job Retired not so quite professionals. And that's why we want to change our pin because we don't want to be associated with the fleet day's of SWCC or SBU's. Hint's the removal of those waves.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: The Future of SWCC and the Special Boat Teams

Seafox
This post was updated on .
Ed,  I understand your concern but kinda surprized as material here discussed has been screened
 found already on other public sites before going here. Not from us already on Public webpages and magazines.
I can give you examples if you wish.
NSW Public Affairs and NSW Command Historian is aware of this site and we often get Photos and News stories from them.
The NAVY SEALSWCC SCOUT TEAM recognizes our efforts and asked us to review their new SEALSWCC.com version 2 You will note we are Linked to their website.
I also Have accouple active SWCC CWOs and and MCPOs who follow the site
and they would be first to tell us if we crossed the Line and we would delete the material.
 I could have one call you assure we are doing no wrong. They might even remind you
if it wasn't for the Old BSU CRS SBUs .. SWCC never would have come about as it was those guys that defined your missions and your history and made close loop happen.

I bet your thrilled with "Act of Valor" Movie coming out.

Hope this straightens out the misunderstanding.
Thankyou for serving Your Country as a Boatguy.


12